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plastic nation in association with InBev UK

features, june 2007, COMMENTS

Operators, regulators and producers were invited by BEDA to discuss the merits and challenges associated with polycarbonate glassware use in a round table discussion. NIGHT reports exclusively on the outcome of a full and frank debate

The use of polycarbonate glasses in licensed premises is an emotive topic and in recent months it has dominated headlines with increasing frequency.

With operators striving to demonstrate their socially responsible credentials, police continuing in their quest to combat crime, a new generation of plastic glassware on the market and political pressure ratcheting up, is an entirely plastic on trade landscape becoming an inevitability?

This was the question under debate at a meeting hosted by BEDA in May that brought together operators, regulators and producers to discuss the issues surrounding glass use.

Explains event organiser, BEDA Executive Director Paul Smith: “With the increased scrutiny on this area over recent months, we felt it was time to have a wide ranging conversation which encompassed a range of key stakeholders, to get an overview of where the plastic/glass debate was at this present time. Our position has always been that we will fight the imposition of blanket glass bans, believing instead that responsible operators should have the power to choose to adopt polycarbonates – or not - depending on their style of operation and management preference. But as an Association we were keen from the outset that we wouldn’t pre-judge the debate. Instead we wanted to have a full and frank discussion to do with three key areas: glass related harms, perceptions of polycarbonates and issues surrounding supply and production.”

Constructive Conversations

Whilst opinion on the glass issue is traditionally polarised – with pro- and anti-plastic factions arguing passionately for their cause – the BEDA meeting adopted a more consensual approach in a bid to develop mutual understanding and, in turn, a constructive debate.

The meeting began with an overview of the issue from a police perspective. Licensing spokesman for the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO), Chris Allison, welcomed the format of the meeting, saying: “I think it’s far better that this issue is tackled through partnership and constructive dialogue rather than reverting to the entrenched, polarised positions perpetuated by certain sections of the press.”

Chris outlined his take on the debate.

“We know we’ve got an issue of excessive drinking in society. We know we’ve got an issue with people being stupid after they’ve drunk alcohol. And occasionally and sadly that leads to some people being seriously injured, by bottles or by glass.

“In recent years a range of alternatives to glass have developed. With the advent of modern polycarbonates there is a better quality product out there which seems to deal with lots of what I would have seen as understandable reservations from people in respect of quality, etc. And in light of these developments, my position is that there now exists a viable way of dramatically reducing serious injury - by replacing glass with polycarbonate in all on trade premises. My basic premise is, that’s got to be a good thing. So I want to know, what can we do to start moving ourselves towards that? What barriers exist?”

Chris extended the question to operators representing different elements of the licensed trade. Paul Kinsey from Nexum Leisure, Nathan Wall from JD Wetherspoon, Simon Kaye and John Walker from Regent Inns and Will Beckett from Underdog Group each run very different styles of venue, but all were in agreement that polycarbonate was not universally undesirable – with three of the four already using polycarbonate in some of their sites. Also, said Paul Kinsey, confirming the shared starting point of the debate: “I’d be amazed if there was one person in the trade who would disagree with your view of wanting to reduce glass related injuries.”

But, the operators argued, the notion of encouraging the entire on trade to introduce polycarbonate glassware was a disproportionate response to the problem.

“The view of the trade is one of proportionality,” said Simon Kaye, Regent Inns’ Commercial Director. “There are circumstances where the type of venue, type of operation and the time of day make it such that the likelihood of a glass-related incident is higher than it would be at another time or in another environment, and in those circumstances, polycarbonate may be absolutely the right choice. But in restaurants, or in venues with a demonstrably lower level of risk, then toughened glass may be the right choice – particularly when you consider that time after time research shows that the public consider drinking out of plastic a downgrading of their experience.

“The notion that as an industry we should anticipate a time, be it five or 10 years down the line, where all experiences are in plastic – we would argue that is disproportionate. It is not a move well targeted to where the risk exists.”

Proportionality

The concept of proportionality then came under scrutiny

.
“I’ll give you a ridiculous example,” said Simon, to explain the trade’s perception of moves to put a blanket ban on glass. “It’s like saying, we have car accidents, so take all cars off the road.”

“I’ll throw you this back,” countered Chris. “Many years ago we said everybody should wear a crash helmet on a motor bike. People resisted. We said, wear a seatbelt in your car. People said, this is a fundamental affront to my human rights! But, actually, it was a sensible measure to reduce the risk of people getting injured. That’s what we’re trying to do here.”

Perception

As to the public’s perception of plastic glassware, said Chris, were they really aware of the quality of modern polycarbonate options?

“I’ve heard lots of people say, you can’t take my drink out of a glass because it will change the taste of the drink. But, actually, I think the real reason people are so attached to glass is because they’re used to it. It’s a cultural thing.”

Simon Kaye disagrees: “Plastic substantially compromises the quality of the drinking experience. We take the view that in some cases, polycarbonates are a necessary measure in ensuring customer safety, and we'll implement them - even if doing so reduces the level of customer satisfaction associated with visiting the venue. But there are other types of operations where to ask customers to drink out of a polycarbonate glass would fatally compromise their experience, and they will simply not come back."

Will Beckett, whose upmarket venues include stylish tequila tasting bar Green & Red, concurred, making the point that whilst some customers would accept their pints in polycarbonate pots, others might be somewhat less receptive to Chris's all-plastic vision.

"We run restaurants, cocktail bars and a restaurant where almost all the wet sales are wine, and I cannot see that putting polycarbonate glasses into a venue like that, where someone is spending £80 on a bottle of wine, is an appropriate step to take – unless you can tell me, categorically, that the customer wont even know the difference. If you could get the range of glassware, no damage to customer perceptions and no cost implications, could you justify the move to plastic? Of course. But we are not at that stage yet.”

“There is no doubt that at the moment perceptions of plastic are mixed,” Chris conceded. “But there is a bit for me that says, why don’t we, collectively, take on a bit of social responsibility and not just accept the public views for what they are, but try and change them so the public starts to think, ‘Yes I can drink out of something different. It doesn’t change the experience for me’. If by getting people drinking out of polycarbonate we stop hundreds of people losing their sight over the year across the country, I think that the trade offs we’re talking about are acceptable.”

Steps Forward

The trade stated that they felt that key barriers to the more widespread implementation of polycarbonate were product quality, customer perceptions, product range, price and environmental credentials.

On product quality, says Andy Bond of Global Brands, which produces and bottles VK Vodka Kick, “For a sweet product like VK the taste and shelf life has hardly altered, but putting beer products into PET is more challenging. The shelf life of PET products is generally shorter,

PET bottles take longer to chill down and warm up more quickly in the hand.”

Cost discrepancies also make a move to plastic difficult, with operators paying between 8% and 25% more for PET than glass-bottled products. On the glassware side, the price of quality polycarbonate was quoted as four times more expensive than nucleated toughened glass. “Plastic will always be more expensive than glass,” says Andy Bond. “The price is more volatile because it’s oil price dependent.”

According to Nigel Pollard from SNUK, “polycarbonate also degrade more rapidly.”

“We try to serve our product in the best possible condition,” he continued, “and many of the critical quality factors – including temperature, appearance and cleanliness – are affected dramatically when you serve the product in plastic.”

Range

The ranging issues began with a discussion of the brands available in PET bottles. “The bigger brands will survive, but smaller brands will be massively affected. There’s no way a small beer manufacturer is a continental country is going to install PET bottling facilities to serve the UK market – they will simply stop selling into the UK,” says Nigel Pollard. It may be possible to move the major brands across to PET in 3-4 years, agreed Nigel and Andy, but the implications for the customer choice would still be immense. “Customer choice would be significantly affected,” said Jon Collins of research consultancy CGA. Chris Allison’s suggestion that a possible reduction of the number of brands in the market should not used as a reason for not progressing the issue, and Adrian Studd’s proposal that imported glass-bottled lagers could be decanted into plastic pots before serving were dismissed as “missing the point.”

Glasgow Experience

Perhaps more significant that a reduction in the number of brands, argued Nathan Wall of Wetherspoons, was that a switch to plastic would also impact the range of customers using visiting the on trade. His comments mirrored those made by MP John Grogan, who on 15 May tabled an early day motion opposing moves by police forces to force pubs and clubs to replace glasses with polycarbonate containers.

“One of our major concerns – and I’ve seen in with my own eyes in Glasgow and elsewhere – is that where polycarbonate has been introduced, you end up with a younger clientele and you loose that broad age range customer base,” Nathan said.

“The challenge the industry currently faces is one of upgrading the experience on the high street in order to encourage a broader clientele on the streets. Because that, in itself, actually leads to better behaviour.”

The move towards polycarbonates seems to offer a logical solution, he continued: take away glass and people won’t get glassed. “But there’s a lot of research that backs up the insight that people because violent for a number of reasons – the way the premises is run, crowding, personal issues, etc – and that there are things that we can do as licensees with regards to design, control, management that reduce the likelihood of flashpoints and in turn the risk of glass related incidents. These options should be explored.”

Checklist For Success?

On this point, suggested Jon Collins, perhaps there was an opportunity to move forward.
“BEDA and ACPO could jointly devise a document that would be the basis for a risk-assessed approach for every premises,” he offered. “The document could list all the risk-reduction factors operators need to consider in their premises. If someone ticks all the boxes then the local authority can be confident that the venue does not need to implement plastic. But if they don’t tick them all, the response would be to implement plastic, for some or all of the trading sessions.

“A move such as this will help evolve the situation, because the producers will suddenly see an increase in demand, production runs will be increased, and maybe we’ll see an increase in the number of brands available in plastic.

“It would also remove the frequency with which certain forces, maybe even certain officers, are running ahead of the national trend and trying to pressure operators – often through informal conversations - into moving across to polycarbonate.”

But Chris was concerned that this approach – sanctioning glass in certain situations – “encourages people to hang on to the past. The perception will be that there are still posh premises which have glass, and other premises which don’t. And operators will maintain that they want glass in their premises. If we’re trying to instigate a cultural shift then differentiating in this way will undermine that effort.”

But, argued Will, surely the threat of a glass ban is useful in incentivising operators to improve standards?

Adds Nigel: “If we single out the poorly run venues with plastic, I as Joe Consumer can make a decision – that venue has got glass, it doesn’t attract trouble, I’ll put my custom there. That place has got plastic, it’s obviously had trouble, I’ll take a view as to whether to go in there or not. “

“We’re already using our powers to do that,” said Chris. “And that doesn’t account for the fact that there’s always the first time that somebody gets glassed in a place.

“I want to take the debate on. We need to look at how to change people’s opinions entirely. How do we make plastic as cool as it is to drink out of a bottle with a small lime in the top?

Nathan Wall mentioned the example of respected wine producers’ decisions to move from corks to screw caps to demonstrate that it might be possible to affect change. “If you could get groups like CAMRA to accept a plastic glass, that would be quite interesting,” he smiled.

Tipping Point

If industry were to accept a move to plastic, said Chris, it would be necessary to address all of these issues. But developments in quality, range and cost could not be achieved without increased demand. “At what point do we reach the tipping point, where plastics producers deem it worthwhile to generate the quantity and quality of products at a cost that operators are happy with? How can we move toward this point?”

“Surely there’s a case here for Governement to spend money on the situation – because from what you’ve said, making plastic acceptable and prompting its universal usage it could save the NHS millions each year,” considers Will Beckett.

Responds Chris: “I think the position the Government would take is, this is a problem created by the trade, because if people weren’t going to your premises and drinking, then this wouldn’t be happening. Therefore the people who should be footing the bill for that are the people who are supplying the product: the polluter should pay.”

Paul Kinsey suggested an alternative.

“Perhaps there’s another way. If by adopting plastic, industry is saving the Government millions each year, perhaps Government would be prepared to reinvest those savings in the industry in the form of tax breaks or similar. There could be a capital benefit in the tax regime that makes it advantageous for operators to adopt plastic.”

“I’d be supportive of that,” agrees Chris.

Outcome

Following the meeting, BEDA has committed to progressing the polycarbonate debate by exploring several of the points raised, including:

• Seeking to formally engage at local level with Chief Constables, the authorities and trade to broker fair and workable local polycarbonate policies.

• By exploring the possibility of securing Government support for the move to polycarbonate through relevant tax breaks for on trade businesses.

• By exploring the possibility of independent consumer research into customer perspectives on polycarbonate.

BEDA’s view will continue to be that we will challenge the blanket imposition of glass bans, but we want to work constructively

Words: Alex Eyre

From: June 2007

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